Taking a look into the NeoFami Famicom Clone

[Epicenter]

A lot of us have probably seen the professional-looking "NeoFami" pirate clone systems from Yobo/GameTech. Well, we've got a proper breakdown of them, including inside and outside photos and hardware details now online at Epic Gaming anyone who'd like to take a look.

http://www.epicgaming.us/features/pirate_neofami.php

[*o*]

doesnt look very new

[biubid_boy]

Nice review! But its dissapointing. I was expecting a high class fake!

[SgtBowhack]

I think that article is quite misleading.
I've used a NeoFami for months, and would like to point out a few things.
1) The color of the circuit boards means absolutely jack when discussing the quality of electronics. The fact that it is only green on one side is because it is only a single-sided PCB (why would you solder mask a side without solder?) The silicon may change color if you don't apply some solder mask to the boards.
2) "A large number of games" do not have problems with NOACs. In fact, the actual count of games that don't work properly is below 1%. And in those games, some of the problems are simply sound issues because of some hacks the games used to squeeze every little bit out of the NES.
3) Where is this fabled lag that NOACs have? NOACs from the late 90s and early 00s are probably better manufactured than 6502s from the early 80s.
4) You say that there is no glued-down stuff, and then call the NOAC "glued down." That's called epoxy, my friend, and is used in plenty of legitimate electronics. Yes, it keeps manufacturing costs down... and what's wrong with that? The fact is, this NOAC is well-built. And guess what? There's tons of different NOAC implementations out there. I've got the spec sheets to half a dozen of them. Just saying "It's an NOAC" and leaving it at that isn't good enough.

NOACs really get a bad rap, and it's articles like these that put them down without any solid reasoning. The facts:
- NOACs are compatible with > 99% of games and run them without problems.
- Problems associated with the NOAC are not NOAC problems 90+% of the time, but problems with cheap parts used in implementing the NOAC into a console. I am not saying that the NeoFami does not have problems similar to those mentioned with other NOACs (though I think the sound and video quality is perfectly fine), but saying "It's an NOAC, it must suck" doesn't work either.

In short, boo to your review. Boo. Shame on you.
(Though I think the first half was quite fair... the part before you opened it up, I mean)

(BTW: I don't see why the NeoFami isn't overclockable, I see the crystal in the screenshot... just replace that with a faster one and it's overclocked...)

[gannon]

(BTW: I don't see why the NeoFami isn't overclockable, I see the crystal in the screenshot... just replace that with a faster one and it's overclocked...)

Because that would overclock the ppu aswell, and then it wouldn't function

[SgtBowhack]

I kinda thought that... but then I figured "Nah, they can't both be running off of the same clock..."
Still, nothing to stop you from doing it

[Epicenter]

(BTW: I don't see why the NeoFami isn't overclockable, I see the crystal in the screenshot... just replace that with a faster one and it's overclocked...)

The clock to the FOAC determines the clone 6502's clock, the PPU's clock, the audio hardware's clock, and various other things. Changing it will make hte machine nonfunctional.

I kinda thought that... but then I figured "Nah, they can't both be running off of the same clock..."
Still, nothing to stop you from doing it

No, you are WRONG. You are completely incontrovertibly wrong. Of course they run on the same clock. Do you think there is a clock generator INSIDE the IC? Of course not.

To anyone who is even remotely discerning about having random waves not TURN OFF or go silent during PCM Playback, insist that games not use random pitch and volume for their notes from unit to unit, and anyone who insists that you should be able to hold down buttons (like Down incidentally) without it registering as a TAP and making it impossible to duck in platformers or aim down in Contra ... will be HORRIBLY DISSATISFIED with a FOAC.

I am not saying that the NeoFami does not have problems similar to those mentioned with other NOACs (though I think the sound and video quality is perfectly fine), but saying "It's an NOAC, it must suck" doesn't work either.

Guess what? The sound and video are not 'perfectly fine' and the assumption is usually quite safe becuase the FOACs currently used in pirate Famicom systems are very shoddy and poorly designed from mediocre reverse-engineering of the hardware.

Most pirate consoles not integrated into controllers use a 3 PCB setup with the same FOAC in them. I've used tens of these and every one of them acted differently, but not ONE of them worked well. The audio was atrocious on all of them, but flawed in new and nauseating ways each time. The video output on some was fuzzy and shaky, on others, blurry, and on some, the vertical sync was messed up and the picture would randomly fail. This was with all-correct solder joints and good (Replaced) cabling to the TVs and stereo equipment used.

The fact that there are so many variations across the same product line attests FURTHER to the abysmal build quality of these chips.

Problems associated with the NOAC are not NOAC problems 90+% of the time, but problems with cheap parts used in implementing the NOAC into a console.

WRONG. The only components to connect are controller ports, the cartridge slot, and the pins to power and A/V jacks (and a couple scattered capacitors, resistors and a regulator. NO logic.) There ARE no other components and there is no ability for sound problems or video problems or incompatibility with 'just some' problems to occur if these are all decent solder joints, which they were. Show me these 'components' and you'll have an argument. Oh wait, you can't. There aren't any.

Where is this fabled lag that NOACs have? NOACs from the late 90s and early 00s are probably better manufactured than 6502s from the early 80s.

NES and Famicom units have slowdown too, but it's not this severe. Games lag in places they do not on the real hardware, and in places the FC/NES lag, the FOAC units lag far worse. This is not a true 6502 core in use, it's a shoddy clone which does less work per cycle than the real deal. Same as the Signetics 68000s used in very early MegaDrive/Genesis systems which provided the performance of a 68000 at 6 MHz, running at 7.67.

The fact that you keep calling it a NOAC when it is a clone of FAMICOM hardware and not NES hardware, is just ANOTHER technical inaccuracy you've brought to the table, and makes your post quite misinformed and ignorant.

Stop blindly defending horrific bootleg hardware just because you don't want to admit that the chip you put in your little portable isn't stellar and wonderful. If you want to continue to argue, return with the technical knowledge required to make correct, accurate, well-based arguments-- what you have said so far has no logical basis in reality.

[SgtBowhack]

I kinda thought that... but then I figured "Nah, they can't both be running off of the same clock..."
Still, nothing to stop you from doing it

No, you are WRONG. You are completely incontrovertibly wrong. Of course they run on the same clock. Do you think there is a clock generator INSIDE the IC? Of course not.

To anyone who is even remotely discerning about having random waves not TURN OFF or go silent during PCM Playback, insist that games not use random pitch and volume for their notes from unit to unit, and anyone who insists that you should be able to hold down buttons (like Down incidentally) without it registering as a TAP and making it impossible to duck in platformers or aim down in Contra ... will be HORRIBLY DISSATISFIED with a FOAC.

Did you think I was being serious about the overclock? I said you could do it. I didn't say it was a GOOD idea. It would make the system not function properly.

And as I said before, the FOACs differ greatly in quality from manufacturer to manufacturer. There isn't just one going around. There are some that are quite accurate. In game stores in Japan they have things talking about the quality and compatibility of different Famiclones, and they tend to agree that the FOAC used in the NeoFami is nearly as good as a real Famicom. It's not without problems. And I've never had problems with Contra on my Famikonyarou clone. Plays just like on an NES. I'd say you've just had bad experiences.

I am not saying that the NeoFami does not have problems similar to those mentioned with other NOACs (though I think the sound and video quality is perfectly fine), but saying "It's an NOAC, it must suck" doesn't work either.

Guess what? The sound and video are not 'perfectly fine' and the assumption is usually quite safe becuase[sic] the FOACs currently used in pirate Famicom systems are very shoddy and poorly designed from mediocre reverse-engineering of the hardware.

This statement seems extremely biased, but I'm afraid I can't disagree with it as I have no proof. However, NOAC designs vary greatly, and the methods used in designing them are also likely to vary. It's not like the NOAC hasn't changed in 15 years, and I'm sure some use Nintendo's schematics as the basis for the design. There might be signal noise, but that will vary with PCB design (which you admit is very good on the NeoFami as far as the traces and things go, which is what matters anyway).

Most pirate consoles not integrated into controllers use a 3 PCB setup with the same FOAC in them. I've used tens of these and every one of them acted differently, but not ONE of them worked well. The audio was atrocious on all of them, but flawed in new and nauseating ways each time. The video output on some was fuzzy and shaky, on others, blurry, and on some, the vertical sync was messed up and the picture would randomly fail. This was with all-correct solder joints and good (Replaced) cabling to the TVs and stereo equipment used.

Sorry for your bad luck. I personally own 4 or 5 different NOACs and almost all of them are about as good as my NES in video quality (except for the issue with the lines on brightly colored solid colored areas such as the background in SMB, but that issue also exists on Nintendo's AV Famicom/new NES as well). I've not noticed any sound abberations either, except in Megami Tensei II, which has little or no background music because the sound doesn't get passed through properly (which is not an NOAC problem, but an implementation problem).

The fact that there are so many variations across the same product line attests FURTHER to the abysmal build quality of these chips.

Were all of the ones you tested actually from the SAME product line? If so, look for a new one.

Problems associated with the NOAC are not NOAC problems 90+% of the time, but problems with cheap parts used in implementing the NOAC into a console.

WRONG. The only components to connect are controller ports, the cartridge slot, and the pins to power and A/V jacks (and a couple scattered capacitors, resistors and a regulator. NO logic.) There ARE no other components and there is no ability for sound problems or video problems or incompatibility with 'just some' problems to occur if these are all decent solder joints, which they were. Show me these 'components' and you'll have an argument. Oh wait, you can't. There aren't any.

Ummm... the tolerance values of resistors and capacitors on the boards will affect quality of the output of video and sound. Software incompatibility is an NOAC problem. No doubt about it. But that incompatibility is highly overstated by many. The fact is that only about 1% of games don't run because of NOAC incompatibility. The larger problem is cheap manufacturing of most NOACs, but this does not extend to all of them. As said before, there are plenty of NOAC implementations out there, and to say they all suck due to some misfortunes in the past is silly. Even if you have tried a dozen of them, if they just happen to be a dozen of the same beast, then that's just poor luck. I've heard countless tales of NOACs with odd, wavey sound, or soft video, etc., where replacing the output board (the one with the ports) fixed the problems (probably because of a blown resistor or some such). And the ones where the video sync was bad... are you sure it wasn't a PAL model being used on an NTSC TV or vice-versa? They often make two different versions of the same models.

Where is this fabled lag that NOACs have? NOACs from the late 90s and early 00s are probably better manufactured than 6502s from the early 80s.

NES and Famicom units have slowdown too, but it's not this severe. Games lag in places they do not on the real hardware, and in places the FC/NES lag, the FOAC units lag far worse. This is not a true 6502 core in use, it's a shoddy clone which does less work per cycle than the real deal. Same as the Signetics 68000s used in very early MegaDrive/Genesis systems which provided the performance of a 68000 at 6 MHz, running at 7.67.

The fact that you keep calling it a NOAC when it is a clone of FAMICOM hardware and not NES hardware, is just ANOTHER technical inaccuracy you've brought to the table, and makes your post quite misinformed and ignorant.

Ummm... that'd be all well and good except the Famicom and the NES are technically not different at all. The chips used are exactly the same. The only reason it is a Famicom clone is that it has a 60-pin connector attached rather than 72. This was discussed in another thread (where I actually took that same standpoint and was pointed to convincing evidence that I was, and you are now, full of it). The NES has the sound passthrough of the Famicom on the bottom of the system in the expansion port, rather than on the cart slot. Other than this implementation change, and the lockout chip being added, the NES and Famicom are 100% the same puppy. Do you see anything but the 6502 and the PPU in the Famicom? (No? Then how can it be different? Oh, right, it can't.) Calling it an FOAC or an NOAC simply comes down to a matter of personal preference.
I'm also not saying that the lag doesn't exist, but I'm asking for solid examples that I can look at to see where there is some to make some qualitative/quantitative analysis for my own benefit. Any place where you can say "This lag is atrocious and shouldn't be there! Just look!" would be helpful.

Stop blindly defending horrific bootleg hardware just because you don't want to admit that the chip you put in your little portable isn't stellar and wonderful. If you want to continue to argue, return with the technical knowledge required to make correct, accurate, well-based arguments-- what you have said so far has no logical basis in reality.

I'm not "blindly defending" it. I have it and it works. Good enough for me. If you want proof as to why it works, I can send you the implementation sheets for some NOACs. I'd also like to posit that you haven't made any purely technical arguments either, however. Honestly, if you don't like the NOAC, you don't like it. And there's really nothing I can say to change your mind. But there are others who've had excellent experiences with them (such as me), and I just think that it's a bit shady to try and get people think that they must all be the same horrible little demon you've dealt with.

Also, I'm a little disappointed that you completely ignored some of my points (presumably because you have no proof to the contrary). At least be a little sporting and admit that there might be some truth to what I said

[Epicenter]

Personally, I think you are a lot less discerning about the way a system performs than I am. You claim that the sound problems (which anyone with ANY experience with them, technical or purely anecdotal) will tell you exist, are not an issue. You claim lag is a non-issue. Anyone I know who plays any NES or Famicom titles nowadays, will tell me the EXACT opposite of audio performance on FOACs and emulators, and will readily be able to point out games that are gleaming repositories of lag. But if you fail, or choose not to, percieve this I can't say anything about that, I suppose.

That said, I will tell you this-- the caps and resistors used to convey the audio and video streams to the ports make a difference, yes. Note how I said the STREAMS. There is no way for a faulty capacitor or resistor, or one that was improperly selected, to corrupt just one wave in the final stream. And that's the most crucial flaw with the FOAC's audio subsystem. Example, when PCM plays on most tested units (I have tested LOADS of them), the rest of the waves all go silent. Meaning once one PCM sound effect plays, all music halts. If it's part of the music it's just as disorienting, as the sound effects all halt. Each FOAC tested even from the same product line produced differing audio pitches and tempos from the SAME music arrangements in the same game. Others produced STATIC in the place of one of the waves making about 1/5 of the audio total screeching noise that was downright painful to suffer through.

These flaws CANNOT be generated by altering of the stream by improperly selected or shoddy capacitors or resistors, and your argument of 'poor implementation causing audio problems' is thereby null and void.

I fail to see how you could have used only a batch of magical enchanted bootleg hardware imitations and how you can see the whole scene through such rose colored glasses. I don't deny some halfway decent FOACs can exist, but I sure as hell can't encounter any despite extensive use of FOAC based units from numerous product lines.

As for your statement that there are no differences between the NES and the Famicom besides the lockout chip and cartridge pinout and wiring of the audio path through the expansion connector, I do believe you're wrong there as well. The Famicom contains a slightly different audio subsystem. Not a lot different, but the differences are quite existant. If you'd like me to go into them, I will. But unlike your assumption that I have no case if I do not respond to one of your comments, the true case is that I'd rather not have each of my posts equate to 10 pages of text.

Reading your comment in the other thread we've debated in, I'm glad you didn't mean criticism in that regard, but I am only taking such a militant attitude to your remarks due to your HEAVY criticism of my writing rather than constructive criticism. You chose, instead of giving useful and unbiased critique on my writing, to instead attack my opinions in a rather vicious fashion. I find it particularly amusing that you had no problem with my article until I stopped reviewing the plastic shell and box and started reviewing internal hardware based on your beloved bloody FOAC.

The job of the reviewer is to be honest and not to bend based on public popular opinion and I am doing just that. Popular opinion to many is that "the NeoFami is a perfect NES/Famicom clone where you never need new connectors and is the ideal replacement for a 'broken' blinking NES' when this is NOT the truth. The truth is, the machine is fundamentally flawed, and buying a machine for ~$35 that will only partially (and shoddily) mimic the behavior of the real machine, when a new 72-pin connector to fully repair the true, accurate machine ... for $5 or less ... is a moronic decision at best unless you want the machine as a curiosity.

Remark as you will, I'm not going to spout disinformation for your benefit and I stand by what I wrote.

[MM007]

Um...this is becoming less of an informed debate and more of an argument...

I haven't owned an NOAC, since the actual hardware is simply one (relatively) small board, but I think the truth is somewhere inbetween your viewpoints.

First, I'd like to say that both of you have good points. You do hae to remember, however, that when buying such chips, (which CAN and ARE shoddily made), it is a matter of luck. Some are likely better than others, and maybe one of you got lucky.

Also, sound quality can be attrocious or slightly sub-par, but in some cases where it isn't TOO monsterous, different people make different decisions on what sound (and video) qualities are adequate. Other than the point Epicenter made about the technical flaws in some NOACs, it comes down to a matter of preference, something which you can argue for an eternity and not agree on, so there is no point in debating that issue, especially if your NOACs are as different in quality as it seems.

I doubt the NOAC will work with fully 99% of the games on a tolerable level. Until I see an actual list of the titles that do and don't work well, I will reserve judgement, but I don't think even that would be reliable, given differences in quality in each chip.

Each of you has some good point, but please don't turn this into a heated argument. We each have our own idea of "quality", and since the chips are also so different individually, agreeing on a set value of quality (be it good or maximum suckage) is simply impossible and pointless.

[SgtBowhack]

Good call. I didn't want to really get into a fight about it, I was mainly trying to point out that others may disagree with points in the review, and hoping that maybe some of the comments might be toned down to make it a little more impartial.
There is a NeoFami compatibility list on Gametech's website but it's far from complete. When I get back to America I'll bust out my NES cartridge collection and get to "testing" the games myself. But I've seen other ones that have said that at least as far as licensed NES games go, it's quite good (unlicensed might be different since they have wacky mappers and various other stuff that... well, heck, they aren't compatible with NES systems half the time). I'm pretty sure the NOAC in the Super8 has really great compatibility, for example (the one that Kevin Horton uses in his portable). So far I haven't noticed any compatibility differences between the Famikonyarou, NeoFami and the Super8.
I am well aware that the NOAC has its issues, but I've also heard so many stories of the NOACs being fixed by replacing parts on the boards and things like that that I've come to the conclusion that the chips themselves are probably (at least most of the time) not to blame. I'm sure the occasional faulty chip comes out of the HK factories, too... and by "occasional" I mean "something below half, but not sure how much smaller."
In short, I think it's best to agree to disagree on this issue. It's like using a VIA C3 processor for a portable PC. You know the thing is slow and crappy but it's so good as far as power usage and size that you're willing to overlook that. Certainly not as big of a setback as using an Athlon would be.

Each of you has some good point, but please don't turn this into a heated argument. We each have our own idea of "quality", and since the chips are also so different individually, agreeing on a set value of quality (be it good or maximum suckage) is simply impossible and pointless.

Exactly. That was what really got me bothered to write my response to the review in the first place. There wasn't even evidence that the machine was turned on, for crying out loud. But that's all I'll say. I hope I haven't offended Epicenter too much in this long rant (and the long rants that preceded it). It's a subject we should just agree to disagree on.

[goodie]

I've tested the following games on my Neo-Fami:

Super Mario Bros./Duck Hunt
Super Mario Bros. 2
Super Mario Bros. 3
Dr. Mario
Yoshi's Cookie
Kirby's Adventure

The only one that lagged was Kirby's Adventure, but this is understandable, because that game was so big and used extra mappers and stuff. So no big deal. It wasn't that much worse than the real NES's lag, anyway.

The audio, while not perfect, is good enough for a portable. If you build a small video amp, the video quality actually looks pretty good.

So, all in all, my conclusion is that NOACs are not perfect. They have their flaws. But who cares? It's good enough for a cheap little portable.

[Alchemist]

The Famicom contains a slightly different audio subsystem. Not a lot different, but the differences are quite existant.

I'd be interested in hearing how - they both feature the same 6502 variant, as far as I know (Ricoh 20A3). Were there different revisions that changed sound hardware? Anything that goes on outside of the chip is of negligible difference as far as I'm concerned.

Also I think it's important to note that there are several variants of famicom clones, from the early NASA or Dendy models with multiple ICs inside, to the tiny glop-top stuff you see today. There is bound to be some variation in accuracy. At best, all you can both say is "in my experience...".

[Nes Man]

...The only one that lagged was Kirby's Adventure...

Really? That sucks because I've have no trouble with it on my Mega Joy 2, it's one of my favorite games...

[SgtBowhack]

Epicenter: First, let me apologize for not responding sooner--MM007's post blocked your post from my view. The only difference in the Famicom audio subsystem is that it supports audio pass-through on the cartridge slot, allowing mappers to extend the sound channels of the system. This support was, for some mysterious reason, taken out of the NES, though with some modification to the expansion port and an adapter that supports the same expansion port hack, you can revive that support (though it's just really crappy to do).

Yes, I am likely less discerning than you when it comes to NES accuracy. And after this argument, I'm beginning to think that's a good thing Though I believe I did admit that certain games did have audio flaws. I don't consider that a deal-breaker though. For the 10% of games that have these audio problems, 90% sound 'fine' where 'fine' is defined as no truly noticeable abberances. It is probably likely that I'm generally lucky regarding what games I'm playing on the NOAC, and that is what causes me not to despise it like some. Admittedly, I own 1 game that simply does not run: Goemon Gaiden II. It gets to the title screen and dies. However, I haven't had a chance to test this in a Famicom so I'll have to wait and see if it's really an NOAC or a "you bought a cheap broken cartridge, stupid!" problem. As I said, I plan to do more tests soon.

I would hardly call my first post a vicious attack, however. Reviewers are bound to be criticized when their views differ from others. Honestly, I simply didn't like the review because it was 100% aesthetic. You reviewed the paint job and then said "Ewww! An NOAC! Stay away!" Is this not a VERY selective way to write a review? You didn't even compare it to other NOACs. At very least, there could've been something that said "Hey, this NOAC worked (better, worse, on par) compared to others I have used." Would I say the NeoFami is a perfect replacement for the NES? No. It works for most people's purposes, but as you said, if you want the real deal, the 72-pin connectors are the way to go. I still think the NES mechanism is about the crappiest thing ever though.

goodie: That's all I'm saying. I don't like things being written off as crap before there's any evidence that it was even tried.