Christmas Avatar Time!

Post by **bicostp** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:06 pm

Actually, Christmas as it is commonly celebrated pulls a lot from the Pagan holiday of Yule.

The Christmas tree? in the frigid north of Europe, they would chop down an evergreen (a sign of life persevering through winter, since they appear to never die) and decorate it with apples (which evolved into ornaments).

They would also chop down the biggest tree thye could find and burn the log. (the Yule Log.) Each spark that came from the log represented a new cow or sheep to be born in the spring.

That's also why it's celebrated in the winter.

At least that's the gist of what I remember of a History Channel special.

palmertech · Post by **palmertech** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:17 pm

I never said that the traditional Christmas dates back 2000 years.

All those things are true, but they are still part of Christmas, and belong under its name.

It is not a religious issue, it is a simple issue of identity.

bacteria · Post by **bacteria** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:37 pm

Xmas is the same meaning a Christmas; get over it.

Time for a history lesson - Christmas on 25th December WAS a conspiracy. There is documented proof that Christ did exist according to the copper scrolls found by the Dead Sea, but that he was a leader of a gorilla organisation and not a saviour, "the Resistance" if you like against the Romans. A bit like Gandhi in India, overthrowing the British Empire; except Jesus was unlikely to have been as anti-killing. That is the reason he was stoned by his own people too. The Romans had hundreds of Gods, many of which shared the common theme of being sent by God as the Son of God to Earth for man's sins, crucified, etc, etc - so actually, the romantic story of the bible was actually extremely likely to be a Roman God, borrowed, one of which had a similar name (can't remember it off-hand); which is of course is why the Romans accepted the faith, plus the fact when the Roman Empire was weak they took Christianity rather than being overthrown so quickly by "the barbarians".

Incidentally, there were thousands of disciples not just 12 as in the bible - it is an established fact that centuries ago (can't remember the year, when the sermons stopped being held in Latin to stop people understand what they were being told and being able to question it; some scholars met and re-wrote the bible from scratch, keeping the scrolls of the disciples they agreed with and put the rest to the fire. If you have hundreds of transcripts you can easily find a few that contain the story you want to relay (eg miss out Madeline, Jesus's wife, etc) and not the others - hence, 12 stories of disciples in the bible.

The 25th December was the Pagan main day of the year (BTW "Pagan" only meant country folk, like farmers and people of the country; not devil stuff); so the Church decided to move the so-called birth of Christ from 11 September to 25 December in an effort to stamp out non-Christian belief; and succeeded. By the same token, 1 April was the "Pagan" New Year day, so the Church pronounced that "April Fool's Day" to make the Pagans a laughing stock. The Church have a lot to answer for.

I am Atheist BTW, although I know a fair bit about the "story" rather than the myth. Many people need to believe in something they can never prove exists but believes in it anyway - hence "faith"; like also some people believe in lots of other things too, like alien abduction, glass skull, etc, etc. No different to paying homage to Zeus or any other Greek Gods for that matter.

Religion has caused more deaths and wars than anything else on the planet, and THE major reason for modern aggression between Arabs and the West, since the Christians attacked the Arabs during the Crusades - it was unprovoked. Funny how both sides of a war believed "God is on my side" - yeah, right.

So, don't preach about Xmas and Christmas like it matters - the day is 3 months late anyway, so don't get precious! Religion is also the root of many of the world's conflicts, past and present.

BTW - Santa is largely down to Coka Cola. Again, know your history! Also, Santa Claus is the patron saint of children - and thieves; work that one out!

palmertech · Post by **palmertech** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 9:52 pm

Have fun in Hell, Bacteria.

I am not one to debate religion on the 'net, but here is an easy to explain idea:

Suppose that there is only a 0.00001% chance of God being real. Now, look at the results of if he is real or not:

1. If he is not real, oh well, you just wasted a very small portion of your life pretending that there is a God, going to church events and such (Really not all that bad).

2. If he is real, then YAYZ! You can haz heaven!

3. If he is real, and you do not have faith, then you burn in Hell for eternity.

No matter the odds, burning is Hell FOREVER means that the small portion of time needed to be a Christian will never outweigh infinity.

That is the quick and dirty, easy to understand version of "Why to be Christian".

Post by **bicostp** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:18 pm

What about people with different religious beliefs who do not believe in your god? (Not using the word as a proper noun) What happens to them? And, as far as they're concerned, what happens to you because you don't follow their beliefs?

vskid · Post by **vskid** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:23 pm

bacteria wrote:Incidentally, there were thousands of disciples not just 12 as in the bible

A disciple is a follower of someone, you could probably call us disciples of Ben if you wanted (but that would sound cultish)
Jesus had 12 apostles, pretty much vice-presidents.

palmertech · Post by **palmertech** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:28 pm

Well, either I end up in Hel, or they do.

Not being a crazy person here.

According to Jews, I do not go to Hell, I go to "paradise", which is like a not-as-good version of Heaven. According to the Muslims, same deal, with a few tweaks.

So, some religions allow for compromise, some do not. And don't try pulling the "Tolerance" card; if you are tolerant, and my belief is that I should not be tolerant, will you tolerate that?

Anyway, if you are right, and there is no God, then this whole argument is pointless! All that happens is that I spent a bit of extra time in church with good, wholesome people, and none of us to Hell/Heaven anyway.

And I realize there are flaws with Christianity, there are also flaws with other religions. Until the 1960s, Hindus believed that the earth was sitting on top of 4 elephants standing on the back of a huge turtle floating through space. Now, you were saying something about Christianity making no sense?

themadhacker · Post by **themadhacker** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:37 pm

Also, catholics believe this. If you die, you either go to heaven, hell, or purgatory. If you are an evil person, you go to hell as soon as you die. If you are a very good person, you go to heaven when you die. However, if you had quite a few flaws, but were not evil, you will go to purgatory where you will work off your sins and eventually go to heaven. Think of purgatory as something like jail people doing community service.

palmertech · Post by **palmertech** » Mon Dec 22, 2008 10:44 pm

I am actually a theology class in Biola, and that is not quite how it works for Catholics, but close. It is not if you are an "ok" person, catholics also believe you are saved through faith as well as deeds; Hence, non-christ believers get to purgatory unless they actively defy Christ.

So you atheists better hope the Catholics are right, then you at least still have a chance!

Also, a conundrum that has plagued Christianity for years: As shown by examples in the Bible (New testament) and St. Augustine, a man *should* be saved through faith alone, even on his deathbed. So in theory, you can go your whole life being an Atheist, then confess to Christ right before you die, and you will still end up in Heaven. At least do that; Would believing in a God that does not exist hurt you for the last few minutes before passing on? Something to ponder.

collinE · Post by **collinE** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 1:12 am

@bacteria

I only skimmed through what you wrote, but wow. A lot of your "truths" about Jesus are about as provable as Christians' "thruths."

Christians will take stories that coincide with their faith and attach them to Christ, but Athiests will do the exact same thing to disprove Christians. Anyway, I think most people already know that a lot of x-mas traditions come from pagan influence.

And you guys are all wrong. Don't you watch South Park? it's the mormons.

bacteria · Post by **bacteria** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:56 am

Yes, when I saw the South Park clip and all the followers of other faiths than the Mormons went to Hell because their devoted followed the wrong faith, I really LOL'd. Has to be logical - each faith seems to think they are the "true" faith and everyone else is a barbarian and heathen and will go to Hell (or similar).

I have heard Priests trying to justify and tell the story of Heaven at a couple of funerals; if I wasn't at a funeral I would have LOL frankly, it turns out that the reference to Heaven was a passing comment of something that could be interpreted in a number of ways, and was only one reference as to "looking into a garden..." from something like a dream. Like me saying I dreamt of a pink elephant living up a tree and I called it "Xog" - all Hail to the Mighty Xog - on your knees Heathen!!

Hell BTW is equally wishy-washy; frankly Hell is more for me like going to Church, and I hate better-than-thou Christians who try to shove their beliefs on others and make themselves out as god like (people need to make their own choices not be terrorised by others into a belief) - if Heaven did exist, it would be full of people like that - screw that, give me Hell - better of the two situations, more honest - better still, how about the Muslim heaven - 100 virgin women dedicated to you, to tend to your every wish, all the time - boy; THAT would be heaven!

Faith in afterlife is key to a successful society; it stops people saying "my live sucks, let's go on a killing spree and robbery spree and have a better one" - anarchy. I am very society based and entirely conformist to the needs of civilised society, I just happen to be an Atheist - have been for over 30 years now, so I am consistent. The two states are compatable in a modern society, which is just as well, as the vast majority of people these days are also Atheist. BTW - Christianity isn't even the majority faith in the world.

Anyway, everyone, happy Xmas.

exploding.monkey · Post by **exploding.monkey** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:06 pm

merry x-mas to you too, Bacteria.

Arrow--> · Post by **Arrow-->** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 12:58 pm

And if anyone says chatholics worship Mary slap your self because i have no idea where you live
we respect her it is not worship

whats Quanza? I heard its like an african Holiday

exploding.monkey · Post by **exploding.monkey** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 1:02 pm

1: spell chatholics right.

2:yes it is.

grossaffe · Post by **grossaffe** » Tue Dec 23, 2008 2:21 pm

palmertech wrote:Have fun in Hell, Bacteria.

I am not one to debate religion on the 'net, but here is an easy to explain idea:

Suppose that there is only a 0.00001% chance of God being real. Now, look at the results of if he is real or not:

1. If he is not real, oh well, you just wasted a very small portion of your life pretending that there is a God, going to church events and such (Really not all that bad).

2. If he is real, then YAYZ! You can haz heaven!

3. If he is real, and you do not have faith, then you burn in Hell for eternity.

No matter the odds, burning is Hell FOREVER means that the small portion of time needed to be a Christian will never outweigh infinity.

That is the quick and dirty, easy to understand version of "Why to be Christian".

that is what is known as Pascal's wager. Here's the problem with that: Not only do you have to believe in a god, but you have to believe in the RIGHT god. there is definitely more than one religion out there and if we were to go under the assumption that there is a supernatural being out there, there is nothing to say which religion-- if any of the practiced religions-- is correct. So really, the scenerios given your numbers go like this:

99.99999%-- There is no god
a) You wasted time, energy, money, or even laid down your life (depending on circumstances) for something that never existed

b) You lived your life to your own standards and didn't worry about what the imaginary man in the sky thought was right

0.0000_
0.000001%-- The Christian god is real
a) You devoted time and energy worshiping a super natural being who grants you happiness

b) You worshiped the wrong god. The Christian god is jealous of this and exacts revenge on you

c) You worshiped no god and the Christian god sends you to hell.
0.00000_
0.000009%-- There is a god or gods, not the Christian god

a)You wasted time, energy, money, or even laid down your life (depending on circumstances) for something that never existed. On top of that, the other gods may or may not punish you with their own form of torture. Or they may be more forgiving and grant you a merciful after life. Or there is no after life at all.

b)You lived your life to your own standards and didn't worry about what the imaginary man in the sky thought was right. On top of that, the other gods may or may not punish you with their own form of torture. Or they may be more forgiving and grant you a merciful after life. Or there is no after life at all.

c)You worshiped the right god. You may or may not be granted eternal paradise. You may or may not be tortured anyways. There may or may not be an after life.

as you see, there are an infinity of possibilities when dealing with the supernatural (hence the "_" above those figures implying an infinitely repeating number), putting all of your eggs in the basket of Christianity when an infinity of other religions could be the correct one is just pointless. I'd rather live my life how I feel it should be lived rather than living in fear of judgment by some supernatural being. If there is a god who will send me to hell simply for not believing in it, well honestly, that god has an inferiority complex, is imperfect, and does not deserve my respect.