Right Forums? Maybe not. Car Restoring Question.

[Kurt_]

Hey all. I did some (read: an entire night) of number crunching, and found out I can spend the following on a car:

15 mi/gal, $ 7659 left for a car
17 mi/gal, $ 9415 left for a car
20 mi/gal, $11,380 left for a car
22 mi/gal, $12,394 left for a car
24 mi/gal, $13,241 left for a car

The amount I can spend on a car will probably be more. I assumed I'm getting minimum wage at my current job for the next 3 years (I'm an engineering student, c'mon! I'll get a better job than that next year!)

I have two options, as I see it: A newer Camry, or an old all-original muscle car. Guess which option I'm choosing.

My question: Let's say I go chevy. (Parts are more readily available). Let's say I get a $6000 1970's Camaro. (I love the year 1969, anything by anybody from that year is totally dope) How much am I looking at to restore the car into working condition (A full-restore will happen eventually, but not before the end of Uni)

Cosmetically doesn't matter too much. It can have some rust. I plan on winter-driving this thing. The first step will be to get a sacrificial anode (cathode?) so the body won't rust anymore AT ALL. As far as ripped seats or whatever, I'll stitch it up and repair it completely one day. It's all just character marks. It's like finding the "Kurt" in "All those Canadians".

I just want a RUNNING car. What would I have to do to an old car like that to get it working? Let's say the engine is original (1969), it's got 150k km on it (or 70k mi), and has been in storage for the last 15 years.

For those of you interested, my calculations. It would be nice if you could check over everything to make sure nothing's wrong.

Minimum Wage 2009: $9.50
Minimum Wage 2010: $10.25
Minimum Wage 2011: $10.75?
Minimum Wage 2012: $11.25?

-----------------------------------------------------

Working at Harper's for 3.5 months:
(Average for Paycheques, update regularly)
658 Hours

For 2008: $7614
For 2009: $6251
For 2010: $6745
For 2011: $7073?
For 2012: $9360? (40 hour weeks co-op $13/hour for 4 months)

$37,043 in total

+ $1000 I had beforehand.

$38,043
-----------------------------------------------------

RESP: $14,000 takeable dollars?

Tuiton and books: $26,500

$6000 first year
$6500 second year
$7000 third
$7000 fourth


-----------------------------------------------------

For a car, and other things:

$25,543

15 mi/gal, $10,659 left for a car
17 mi/gal, $12,415 left for a car
20 mi/gal, $14,380 left for a car
22 mi/gal, $15,394 left for a car
24 mi/gal, $16,241 left for a car

------------------------------------------------------

Assuming insurance is $1500 yearly...

15 mi/gal, $3159 left for a car
17 mi/gal, $4915 left for a car
20 mi/gal, $6880 left for a car
22 mi/gal, $7894 left for a car
24 mi/gal, $8741 left for a car

Assuming insurance is $600 yearly (more reasonable)...

15 mi/gal, $ 7659 left for a car
17 mi/gal, $ 9415 left for a car
20 mi/gal, $11,380 left for a car
22 mi/gal, $12,394 left for a car
24 mi/gal, $13,241 left for a car

------------------------------------------------------

Gas Price Predictions:

$1.06/Litre ($4/Gallon) now (Summer 2008)
$1.60/Litre ($6/Gallon) by summer 2009

*Interpolation*
$1.67/Litre ($6.33/Gallon) by summer 2010
$1.76/Litre ($6.66/Gallon) by summer 2011
*/Interpolation*

$1.85/Litre ($7/Gallon) by summer 2012

But for our area, we're already at $1.26 for gas.
Using the difference between present prices...
2008: $1.26 ($4.77)
2009: $1.90 ($7.19)
2010: $1.99 ($7.53)
2011: $2.09 ($7.91)
2012: $2.20 ($8.33)



2008:

24 mi/gal, $1242 yearly
22 mi/gal, $1355 yearly
20 mi/gal, $1490 yearly
17 mi/gal, $1753 yearly
15 mi/gal, $1987 yearly

2009:

24 mi/gal, $1872 yearly
22 mi/gal, $2042 yearly
20 mi/gal, $2246 yearly
17 mi/gal, $2643 yearly
15 mi/gal, $2995 yearly

2010:

24 mi/gal, $1960 yearly
22 mi/gal, $2139 yearly
20 mi/gal, $2353 yearly
17 mi/gal, $2768 yearly
15 mi/gal, $3137 yearly

2011:

24 mi/gal, $2059 yearly
22 mi/gal, $2247 yearly
20 mi/gal, $2471 yearly
17 mi/gal, $2908 yearly
15 mi/gal, $3295 yearly

2012:

24 mi/gal, $2169 yearly
22 mi/gal, $2366 yearly
20 mi/gal, $2603 yearly
17 mi/gal, $3062 yearly
15 mi/gal, $3470 yearly

------------------------------------------------------

Yearly cost of gas determined from 10100 km (6250 mi) annually:

Drive to School: 10km one way
8 months
3600 km annually for school

Drive to a Job: 20 km one way
4 months
3800 km annually for work

Driving to an outing: 25 km round trip
2 Weekly
2700 km annually for fun!

10100 km without lunch drives
6250 mi

[Dr. KillGood]

Triton wanted to sell his Volvo for like $1500 I think, you should go for it.

Sereously though, I love Volvo's and am going to get one when I get a car you can get used ones for your price range I think.

Check around craigslist.

[Kurt_]

*Ignores above post, clearly he did likewise*

Would it be better to swap out the powerful engine in a lighter car (Nova, Camaro...) for a less-powerful engine? I could save on mileage, thus saving on money, thus allowing more money to be spent on the newer engine! Viscious cycle, I know, but with rising gas prices these days, I think a V6 will provide more than enough power, even in a lighter muscle car. Right?

What's the cost of engines nowadays anyways?

[bicostp]

TLDR edition: Since you just need something to get your butt to work and back, get a decent late-model car instead. Save up some cash before you start in on something fun. A V6 Camry, Sonata, or Accord will have plenty of scoot. Don't get a 4 cylinder engine in anything bigger than a Neon.

Look for a second-gen Saturn. I get 36 MPG in mine without trying very hard.
=======================

Dude, if you want a fuel efficient car you shouldn't be looking at classics. The best one I can think of would be a Dodge Dart with the (nearly indestructible) 225 slant-6 paired to a 4-speed. Geared and driven right you might be able to get 29 out of it. Most cars back then didn't do much better than 23.

Never mind the fact that restoring a classic to good working order and a condition that you'd be willing to put up with every day would cost about as much as a brand new V6 Hyundai Sonata. (Hey don't bash the Sonata. Just look up 0-60 videos of it on Youtube. All that and they get better mileage than the Accord.)

And everyone knows that if you're gonna get a car from 1969, you get a Charger.

You're in Canada, right? You probably have the same problem we have here in New England: rust. Massive rust. Unless you get a miracle, little-old-lady-only-drove-it-to-church-on-Sunday finds, it's gonna take a lot of work to fix one up. (I know because we have an old 70s pickup I'm looking to fix and it needs a few hundred bucks' worth of parts just to be street legal again, never mind safe and good-looking.

You should look at late-model compacts, like Neons or Escorts. I get 36 MPG with my 1999 Saturn, and that's with an automatic and occasional AC use on the highway. It cost $3500 5 years ago and only had 66k miles on it. Look for second-gen SL, SL1, SC, SC1, SW, or SW1 models. The S*2 models have the DOHC engine in them, which have a bit more power but don't get the same kind of mileage. Are they as fun as an old muscle/pony car with a big engine? Probably not. But you're looking for a daily driver, which means practicality.

Either way, if you think you're up to it get a 5-speed, run in the highest practical gear a lot, and spam the clutch going downhill. (Oh how I wish I could let the drivetrain freewheel on hills. Doing 55 downhill with the engine at 2500 RPM = )

On a side note, our 1974 Dodge D200 yard beater got 13/18 MPG when it was on the road back in 1986. (It's got the slant-6, 4-speed, and a 4.1 posi Dana 60 rear end.) The new Dodge Ram 1500 with a manual and a V6 gets 14/17. You'd think 50 years* of engine technology would have gone farther.

* The truck's a '74, but the engine was originally designed in '58. It went into everything: cars, trucks, buses, boats, generators... Rated at 150 HP and 250 lb/ft of torque. Undersquare FTW!

EDIT: I see three flaws in your math:

1. The price of gas will go up
2. I'm pretty sure you have to pay taxes in Canada (don't you?)
3. Who says minimum wage will go up?

[Kurt_]

Yeah, I know mileage is clearly not what I'm getting in a muscle car. I don't need a LOT of muscle, just a little! Engine swaps are easy enough for me to do, I have a friend who restored a 1969 nova into show condition (which they often win) and is currently restoring a '69 camaro.

I figure if I find one with a seized engine, swap it for a V6, I'll be set. Right?

1) I accounted for that
2) I did NOT account for that, but then again, I'll probably have a much better job than this year, like I said before. Fourth year co-op I should be making at least $20 an hour.
3) The government.

[bicostp]

Well, the point is most cars back then got in the low 20s at best, and 15-17 MPG was pretty common. They're just not practical with today's gas prices.

There's no denying they're cool, though.

Just one thing: make sure it's a vehicle you can get parts for!!! Something like a Mustang, Camaro, GTO (or rebranded ones) Chevelle, or Charger. Nobody makes parts for our old truck, which is the main problem in fixing it. (It needs a couple new panels and a floor pan; I've found only ONE place that sells patch panels.)

Check parts outlets like Year One, Summit Racing, and JC Whitney and see what's out there. Trust me, you don't want to get stuck with something you're going to have to fabricate parts for all the time.

I figure if I find one with a seized engine, swap it for a V6, I'll be set. Right?

Depends on the car, engine, and gearing. A lot of the older cars weigh a LOT and probably can't get out of their own damn way with a smaller engine. To make up for that it would have to be geared lower, offsetting the fuel savings over the V8.

A 3L V6 in a newer, lighter car will give you better economy and performance than the same size V6 in an old land yacht.

If you can find something with fuel injection (early 80s Trans Am for example), all the better. EFI > carbeurators when it comes to economy.

Still, you'll only get low to mid 20s at best. Our 2005 V6 Grand Am gets 30.

[Kurt_]

I'm planning on getting 15 or better. I know the Chevy Nova is pretty damn light. I might go for it, as my friend and his dad likely know it inside and out by now. Lighter = better fuel economy too:D

The main reason I'm posting AGAIN is because I purposely neglected to take into account Income Tax Rebates. Since I'm a low income person (<$8652 or some weird number) I get all of the tax back. That's 15% of all my wages.
(Even for sub $10k, the return is phenomenal. We're talking $140 of tax or something. See: http://lsminsurance.ca/calculators/canada/income-tax)

And guess what tax in Ontario is? (Damn high...) 15%!

So no worries, that evens things out for the most part.

I know 1969 mustangs come in Straight 6's, which I'm assuming is more fuel efficient. The Mustang 2 from the late 70's even uses a 4 cylinder engine.

I think a little research into fuel economy and V6 options for such cars is a requirement about now. (I'm not crazy, we're not talking a Caddy here. It's gonna be something nice and light to start with.)

[bicostp]

I know 1969 mustangs come in Straight 6's, which I'm assuming is more fuel efficient. The Mustang 2 from the late 70's even uses a 4 cylinder engine.

My dad had an old Pinto with a 2L 4 cylinder engine. It most likely weighed less than the Mustang II but it only got 19 MPG. (And that was before the block cracked and he started finding oil in the coolant. Gotta love Ford.)

That's freaking pathetic by today's standards, especially when you consider the cost of restoration.

And why in the name of all that is holy would you want a Mustang with a 4 cylinder engine?! If you're gonna get a pony car, get one with a proper engine.

And you have to be careful with unibody cars. Once they start to fall apart there's not a whole lot you can do to fix them.

[vskid]

If its a muscle car, you must go all out and have a V8. Even if it have to have a 6 cylinder in it for while you're poor, you must have a working V8 ready to put in it.

For mileage, get something small like an Escort, Civic (don't you dare rice it), or whatever model bic's Saturn is. Nothing beats a 4 cylinder with a manual hooked to it. Depending on the car, an automatic could really kill your mileage. We had an Escort wagon with an auto and my dad said it was a gas guzzler compared to the 4-door hatchback manual Escort we had. We have a manual Civic sedan right now, but we might sell it and get a manual Escort wagon (Escort=cheaper and I'd rather drive it to school, no one wants to steal an Escort).

For power and decent mileage, look into a turbocharged Volvo.

[Triton]

classic/muscle car: i love 50s cars, ignore what everybody says about getting something common because in this day and age you can get parts for EVERYTHING classic now, kanter carries oldsmobile studebaker packard hudson etc parts, of course chevy and ford (and slightly less so dodge/mopar) parts are going to be the easiest to get.

as to engines the 350 cubic inch chevy smallblock motor is the most common and prolific motor in all of classic and muscle car restoration, they are as common as dirt, nearly indestructable and can make MASSIVE horsepower with very little work. if you are planning a motor swap into anything a 350 is your best bet. but there is NOTHING wrong with the old straight sixes, other v8s (except the 307) flatheads etc. if you want v8 and good milage GET FUEL INJECTION, its not as complicated as everyone thinks and it can make a HUGE difference, a fuel injected 350 in a 90s caprice wagon can get ~24mpg versus the <14mpg that my carbureted 350 in the olds gets. fuel injected cars are also easier to turbocharge

if you want to go somehting not old school killgood is on the right track, i have a 1990 volvo 740 turbo wagon, its got good handling decent fuel milage, its indestructable and the 2.3L turbo motor WILL NOT DIE, 200,000+ miles on it, all stock has been beat to SH!T by myself and probably the previous owner and runs like a freaking top. and its a supremely safe car to drive and can make stupid ammounts of power with out much work (new intercooler, fuel injectors, exhaust and turbo and E85 conversion for CHEAP fuel and i can basically double the stock horsepower from 160 crank to over 250 at the WHEELS, possibly as high as 275! on a 4 banger!)

TL:DR
volvos range from dirt cheap to moderatly pricey and are great cars, classic cars will cost you an arm and a leg in every possible way unless you REALLY luck out but are totally worth it if you are passionate about cars

my cars:
1990 volvo 740 turbo wagon (2.3L B230FT inline 4 cylinder turbo)
1954 oldsmobile super 88 Deluxe sedan (5.7L chevy smallblock V8, holley carb)

If you want more info on stuff like workin on chevy motors, bodywork or just wanna talk cars contact me on aim or MSN

[Rekarp]

Just throwing this out there but have you thought about getting a LNG conversion kit?

[vskid]

Just throwing this out there but have you thought about getting a LNG conversion kit?

Have you found anywhere that sells kits? The thing with LNG and CNG is that about the only way to get them is to buy one from a fleet. Most kits and such are basically vaporware. We were going to get our Yukon XL converted to CNG, but the guy wasn't EPA certified so we wouldn't have gotten the tax credit from it. Now we just have to wait for a nice deal on a factory CNG Cavalier, but in Utah there is a $3000 tax credit for CNG cars so all the prices are jacked up because they figure you'll get the tax credit and save a bit anyways.

[Rekarp]

Just throwing this out there but have you thought about getting a LNG conversion kit?

Have you found anywhere that sells kits? The thing with LNG and CNG is that about the only way to get them is to buy one from a fleet. Most kits and such are basically vaporware. We were going to get our Yukon XL converted to CNG, but the guy wasn't EPA certified so we wouldn't have gotten the tax credit from it. Now we just have to wait for a nice deal on a factory CNG Cavalier, but in Utah there is a $3000 tax credit for CNG cars so all the prices are jacked up because they figure you'll get the tax credit and save a bit anyways.

Nope. Heard about them on car talk and they said they where cheap to refill and where efficient. It should be pretty easy to obtain LNG up in Canada so thats why I mentioned it.

You could convert to electric. One day I want to convert a old motor cycle to electric.

[marshallh]

Don't bother with older muscle cars unless you have a lot of time to put into them and money to buy parts. You've been spoiled by today's generation of cars, that are fuel efficient, reliable, and long lasting. Any domestic older than about 10 years old will be none of those.

Want to be fuel efficient? Buy a Honda Accord or Civic, probably an early 90s. They will simply not die. Mine has 234,000 miles on it and I got close to 40 MPG driving to John's place (a 3.5 hour drive). They are also cheap to maintain and hold their value well.

Imports are your best bet by far. Any old domestic qualifying as a classic muscle car is going to need an engine rebuild the second you get it.

[toby dawg]

If you want a fun car thats cheap and good on gas get one of the older toyota corollas. One with Rear wheel drive. Cant be a sedan tho there all front.