Lets all Switch to Hydrogen

[Extreme_Jesus]

Biofuels are a nice idea and do work, but we need a more feasible answer, simply because to replace al lthe world's gas cars with bio fuel would take more crops than there is surface area of land, so you can see the problem

The only real answer at the moment is a collection of different things like electricity, biofuels, fuel cells etc

one idea that good work is iron filings, i read about in new scientist, very tiny (mircometers) iron filings combust in an almost normal engine, but it ruins the engine very quickly

Also another problem with electric cars is the way the electricity to power them is made, makes just as much if not more CO2 so the problem is still there. And it also has trhe problem of there isnt enough power stations and fuels for said power stations to power everyone with electric cars

[Sparkfist]

In responce to HHO powered car. The idea that the guy has made a gas fule that is two parts Hydrogen and one part Oxygen will not work, unless they are ionized. A Hydrogen atom and Oxygen atom bond to form a stable compound, the only way to have a second Hydrogen atom join is to ionize the HO compound so it looses an atom and then that leave room for the second Hydrogen atom to bond.

Also if you're just cracking water and then having the two gases mix, you will be able to burn it if you do it within a specific time, otherwise the Hydrogen and Oxygen will rebond and condence into water. I know that will work on a car and those that have seen MythBusters know too. As I mentioned above Hydrogen just needs to combine with Oxygen then you can burn it. And the idea of just using Hydrogen in cars was considered but the internal combustion engine is very ineffint, even using Hydrogen it's only using 30% the energy released by the fuel.

As for Bio-Fuels, I wouldn't say it's impssoble to grow enough to fuel cars. The problem is that if you want the Bio-Fuel to burn like Petro-Deisel you have to seperate the fat and things that an engine can't use. Using a deep frier does this, all you have to do for quick fuel is filter it. If you want better fuel you use lye and cracking process to sperate the animal fat and other bad things, you end with a fuel that burns just like Petro-Deisel, lubracates the engine (improving efficency), and one problem is that it doesn't ignite at lower temperates like Petro does (so most people start with Petro and then move to Bio or just use Petro in the winter).

[Indigno]

Biodeisel is pretty neat. With little modification you can run any diesel vehicle off refined cooking oil. (Mostly you need to change the feul delivery system, because the rubber hoses don't work well with the oil.) The best part is the exhaust smells like fried food. Mmm... cholesterol-y!

My dad was actually telling me about this at dinner. He said they can be modded to run off of both diesel and veggie oil. And the great thing is, that places will often pay you to take the oil away (Since they have to get rid of it and landfills are not an option). Basically, you take it home, filter the crap out, and put it in your tank. Then you can have a switch that allows you to switch to diesel (This is for starting up and when oil is not available). So you get paid to use the veg oil, and it doubles on diesel... I am concidering looking into it for a starter car. My dad works with someone who drives one of these, so I might talk to him about it and see what has to be done.

I would like to comment on the Ethanol thing... Yeah, it's great, but it's actually more expensive than gasoline.

And the thing about hydrogen is that (I read this in popular science) in order to get the same range as a standard gasoline car, you would have to have a tank roughly the size of a mini-cooper. Either that, or not only will the pressure tanks can handle will have to greatly increase, but also filling stations will have to have incredibly strong pumps just to fill these super high pressure tanks.


Also, about everyone saying that fuel will run out and we will go into complete darkness (anti-environmental rant here), not only do we have enough gas on the planet to last at least another century (if not longer), but look at all of the alternatives being listed right here. also remember fission, fusion (in the future), solar, wind, geothermal, hydroelectric, coal, and tidal harnessers. And there are more that I'm not even listing.

[gamecube6]

i personally think this
is much cheaper/better.

EDIT: oh, didn't see that you mentioned it... still, i believe it's better

[Sparkfist]

I would like to comment on the Ethanol thing... Yeah, it's great, but it's actually more expensive than gasoline.

Actually it depends on what you use. The government is promoting the use of corn to make Ethanol. The problem with that is that corn isn't very cheap to grow and then use in the making of alchohol. A better and cheap option is swtich-grass. It grows wild in the Mid-West and as all you have to do is water it, it's cheaper to use for high production alcohol making.

And the thing about hydrogen is that (I read this in popular science) in order to get the same range as a standard gasoline car, you would have to have a tank roughly the size of a mini-cooper. Either that, or not only will the pressure tanks can handle will have to greatly increase, but also filling stations will have to have incredibly strong pumps just to fill these super high pressure tanks.

No one's arguing those facts.

Also, about everyone saying that fuel will run out and we will go into complete darkness (anti-environmental rant here), not only do we have enough gas on the planet to last at least another century (if not longer), but look at all of the alternatives being listed right here. also remember fission, fusion (in the future), solar, wind, geothermal, hydroelectric, coal, and tidal harnessers. And there are more that I'm not even listing.

Well scientist have speculated we'll run out of oil by 2050. The problem is that no one know how much oil's been used in the past, no one knows how much oil will really be used in the future, and here's the big one, no one knows how much oil is in the Earth. Some believe that oil is something that is formed closer to the core of the Earth and as it rotates move towards the surface. But really that's not what matters now, we now have a technology that can take landfill material and use it to make oil in a matter of days. Also the way we're moving towards alternitive fuels and power sources we'll be off the use of oil as a fuel source within a century.

[teraflop122]

Also another problem with electric cars is the way the electricity to power them is made, makes just as much if not more CO2 so the problem is still there. And it also has trhe problem of there isnt enough power stations and fuels for said power stations to power everyone with electric cars

As a rule of thumb, a single large mechanism tends to be of higher efficiency than multiple small mechanisms. The vast majority of power plants, including nuclear, coal, oil, natural gas, etc, use the fuel to het water and run it through a turbine at a specific speed. Power plants often yeild higher efficiencies because all of their components can be custom tailered to run at that very specific speed.

And the thing about hydrogen is that (I read this in popular science) in order to get the same range as a standard gasoline car, you would have to have a tank roughly the size of a mini-cooper. Either that, or not only will the pressure tanks can handle will have to greatly increase, but also filling stations will have to have incredibly strong pumps just to fill these super high pressure tanks.

That is only when using hydrogen gas, which has an incredibly low density and therefor must be stored in large tanks at very high pressures. Liquid hydrogen takes up very little space, but presents other problems. We have already established that chemically bonded hydrogen can be stored in relatively small tanks, and that it presents very few technological problems.

I think most of our problems can be solved using electric vehicles, or vehicles which at some point involve the electrical processing of readily available and replenishable substances. The generation of the electricity can be handled by Nuclear power stations, and later orbital solar stations.

[teraflop122]

The problem with solar power is expense and reliability- well...not so much reliability as environmental conditions. To have continuous power you would need several power plants, spaced over a wide area. On top of that, you don't get maximum efficiency unless the mirrors/photovoltaic cells are facing the sun. This requires additional machinery, consuming energy, requiring maintanance, etc.

Mirrors running a conventional turbine convert only 30% of the suns energy reaching the surface into usable energy. I do not know how much solar energy reaches the ground, so someone else will have to complete this equation. Conventional photovoltaic cells, as of a couple months ago, only convert about 15% of the energy reaching the ground into usable energy (IIRC). I know more efficient cells exist, but those are impossibly expensive.

Conversely, I think ground-based solar power has a bright future. In a decade or two the cost should be far lower, with far higher efficiencies.

Solar collectors in space would require an enormous initial investment, but they would suck up a portion of the suns energy before it is filtered away by the atmosphere, and there would never be cloudy weather to obstruct them. With the correct orbit, and simple gyroscopic effects, you could have the collectors facing the sun 24 hours a day.

[Meh]

In responce to HHO powered car. The idea that the guy has made a gas fule that is two parts Hydrogen and one part Oxygen will not work, unless they are ionized. A Hydrogen atom and Oxygen atom bond to form a stable compound, the only way to have a second Hydrogen atom join is to ionize the HO compound so it looses an atom and then that leave room for the second Hydrogen atom to bond.

Also if you're just cracking water and then having the two gases mix, you will be able to burn it if you do it within a specific time, otherwise the Hydrogen and Oxygen will rebond and condence into water. I know that will work on a car and those that have seen MythBusters know too. As I mentioned above Hydrogen just needs to combine with Oxygen then you can burn it. And the idea of just using Hydrogen in cars was considered but the internal combustion engine is very ineffint, even using Hydrogen it's only using 30% the energy released by the fuel.

As for Bio-Fuels, I wouldn't say it's impssoble to grow enough to fuel cars. The problem is that if you want the Bio-Fuel to burn like Petro-Deisel you have to seperate the fat and things that an engine can't use. Using a deep frier does this, all you have to do for quick fuel is filter it. If you want better fuel you use lye and cracking process to sperate the animal fat and other bad things, you end with a fuel that burns just like Petro-Deisel, lubracates the engine (improving efficency), and one problem is that it doesn't ignite at lower temperates like Petro does (so most people start with Petro and then move to Bio or just use Petro in the winter).

You mean ionise the Oxygen atom to lose an electron? It can't be ionised. Not without an ionic bond. H-H-O would be extremely reactive. H-H-O-H may not be though.

[daguuy]

i was gonna make a new topic for this but i guess it fits into this thread so yeah.

anyway, i was just watching a bit of mythbusters abut cooking oil fuel for diesel cars.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOGIh3yRltE
they said it uses an unmoddified car and unmoddified filtered cooking oil and it ran great. but i've heard from other sources that mention methanol and other moddifications and stuff. have any of you tried this? if it's as easy as they say, i'm defintely gonna look for a diesel car

[Extreme_Jesus]

Reminds of of a funny story i read in the hewspaper a few years ago.

The owner of a Fish and chip shop was running his car off the oil leftover from his deepfat fryer and it was working fine. But he got arrest and fined because it wasnt legal because he wasnt paying fuel tax on it

[teraflop122]

I know for a fact that a couple of college students modified an old van to run on plane, old, used cooking oil. All they did was filter out any chunks or globules that would clog the engine.

I just watched a documentary called "The End of Suburbia..." It was highly sensationalist, but it still presented some very interesting, valid facts:

1) Our oil producing ability will peak sometime between 2005 and 2020.
2) Natural Gas production is in decline as reserves are exausted.
3) 15% of the Natural Gas used to heat our homes comes from Canada, but that represents 50% of the Natural Gas capacity available in Canada.
4) Biofeuls such as E85 require more petroleum per gallon; in the form of standard gas, pesticides, fertilizers, and electricity to drive processing technologies; than a gallon of standard gasoline.
5) Hydrogen production represents a net loss in energy- it is merely another method of storing electricity generated by Oil and Natural Gas plants.
6) Hydrogen is most easily derived from Methane, which is Natural Gas, which is already in decline.
7) No amount of Solar, Wind, and alternative electrical generation methods can duplicate the amount of energy needed to run our modern society, currently generated by Oil and Natural Gas. (I really question this one)
8 ) Coal and Nuclear plant construction proposals are generally declined due to excessive polution; cost and negative views; respectively.
9) The decline of Oil will make gasoline prices increase until uneconomical.
10) The decline of Oil will increase the cost of food through the cost of truck transportation, until uneconomical.
11) The decline of Oil will increase the cost of food through poor crop yeilds due to a lack of petroleum-based pesticides and fertilizers...
12) Many of our items are shipped from China, but shipping requires a great deal of fuel.
13) China is also beginning to consume a great deal of oil, making a conflict between our nations likely.

Aside from that there's a lot of naysaying and biased opinions. I find it more disturbing that we may have trouble feeding ourselves, than that we may have trouble fueling our cars. We will need to make new "walkable" communities, with local manufacturing and farming capacities.

Any thoughts?

[Indigno]

Reminds of of a funny story i read in the hewspaper a few years ago.

The owner of a Fish and chip shop was running his car off the oil leftover from his deepfat fryer and it was working fine. But he got arrest and fined because it wasnt legal because he wasnt paying fuel tax on it

And, of course, that is why fuel is so expensive in Europe.

[Triton]

a saw on tv that if we had a solar farm that was 10k square miles (about a quarter of nevada) it would provide almost all of the power in the us

[Indigno]

a saw on tv that if we had a solar farm that was 10k square miles (about a quarter of nevada) it would provide almost all of the power in the us

Yep, if the sun was constantly shining brightly with no clouds. And , you know, it would cost billions of billions of dollars for all of those panels.

[Sparkfist]

I highly doubte that solar can solve our problems with electrcity that easily. The big problem is that that power source is first only going to work durning the day, and secondly is seasonal.

If the idea of solar power really was the answer, the best idea would be to have them in orbit and have the power transfered to a power network on Earth via laser or microwave. Not a ton of research has been done to see if such an idea is even possible or practical. It has been proposed as a means to have a massive amount of power generated, 24/7 and not take up real-estate on Earth.

As for Nuclear power, it is a sad thing that when a new nuclear power plant is proposed for construction in the U.S. it's stot down. People still think that Three Mile Island or Chernobyle can happen, sorry not true. Both happened as a result of neglegence on the part of monitoring the coolant, and generally how the reactors were acting. With third generation reactors, which are out now, you don't have problems like this. Third and forth generation reactors have use coolants that can draw or heat away from the fuel rods, and self contained coolant so Three Mile Island can't happnen. Not to mention that well radioactive waste might be a bad product of nuclear fission, it's not worse then the pollotents that come off coal or oil burning power plants, hell even lowere qualities as Urantium the size of a softball can power a nuclear Navy sub for six months.