Questo o Quella: Does it really matter?

[eurddrue]

I think that the mods and admins are a bit too worked up over this. No I don't wanna pay for other people's health care, and I don't want to treat gays equally, but cmon guys, your getting a bit too worked up over this.

[CronoTriggerfan]

I think that the mods and admins are a bit too worked up over this. No I don't wanna pay for other people's health care, and I don't want to treat gays equally, but cmon guys, your getting a bit too worked up over this.

Wait, what?

[Triton]

I think that the mods and admins are a bit too worked up over this. No I don't wanna pay for other people's health care, and I don't want to treat gays equally, but cmon guys, your getting a bit too worked up over this.

fail segue is fail. dont bring sexual preference into this.

yes america might make more life saving drugs than any other country but how often is it that the drugs that the fancy new ones replace are just as good as the new ones and much MUCH cheaper, drug companies are a for profit business as you already know, yes they might have the second highest taxes but im willing to bet their profits are second higest too, ive seen some drugs cost over two thousand dollars PER PILL, some cancer meds for example.

Whenever the free market is let to work (with slight oversight, of course; this isn't the 1920s, after all) it is the best system in the world.

best for whom? in some cases the people if the system is working right but as we all know that seldom happens. technically communism is the perfect form of government but there is this pesky thing called people that ruin it with their greed, powerhungryness and general stupidity

[SpongeBuell]

I think that the mods and admins are a bit too worked up over this. No I don't wanna pay for other people's health care, and I don't want to treat gays equally, but cmon guys, your getting a bit too worked up over this.

Think of us more as normal members in this case. We're only mods when we tell people what to do, lock threads, etc.

And c'mon, it's a good ol' fashioned debate. They're fun!

[CronoTriggerfan]

best for whom? in some cases the people if the system is working right but as we all know that seldom happens. technically communism is the perfect form of government but there is this pesky thing called people that ruin it with their greed, powerhungryness and general stupidity

I cannot stand this argument. It has no ideological grounding. Have you read The Communist Manifesto? I'm a bit of a Marxist/Leninist/Bolshevist aficionado, and after studying these works intensively, there is no logical reason any of these systems can ever work. And why? They eliminate human freedoms, and thereby, eliminate rights. Engles initially outlined no way for which to keep his system in place, but Marx was quick to correct this, stating that some dictatorial power would need to force the system to work. Lenin enacted this with his proletariat revolutions of 1917, and the truly perfect breed of Communism was shown with Stalinism and Maoist policy, especially things like the Great Leap Forward. A political doctrine that requires over 100 million people to be massacred to keep it in place, no matter how well-intentioned, doesn't seem so "perfect", does it?

You're also arguing that Communism is poisoned by human ambition. So is it greedy, power-hungry, and stupid to want to be successful? To want the highest possible quality of living for yourself earned by the sweat on your brow? To want to live in a society that is incentive-based? In short, to live in a society that values freedom and liberty? Unless you were referring to those in power in Communist systems, in which I would say that this kind of leadership is needed to hold Communism together.

yes america might make more life saving drugs than any other country but how often is it that the drugs that the fancy new ones replace are just as good as the new ones and much MUCH cheaper, drug companies are a for profit business as you already know, yes they might have the second highest taxes but im willing to bet their profits are second higest too, ive seen some drugs cost over two thousand dollars PER PILL, some cancer meds for example.

You missed what I (and others) said the first time. The prices are ARTIFICIALLY high due to the heavy taxation and regulation of the government. And at least in America you have the opportunity and option to buy that 2k cancer pill, unlike in Britain where you might as well consider yourself dead if the government has to pay for such treatment.

I'd substantiate more, but I'm tired. Chew on that one for a while.

[project_failure]

drug companies are a for profit business as you already know

It seems you didn't even bother to read my post. There has to be an INCENTIVE to running a medical system. I don't know about you but I'm not going to spend my life trying cure diseases if I don't get paid for it. With out the Incentive of profit, the health care system will stop looking for ways to cure diseases and all of its' research and development will go away.

Why work to make medication when the government is willing to pay you the peoples money to be unproductive.

[Triton]

point taken on the comunism thing. it sacrifices creativity and progress for blanket equality which leads to stagnation.

it seems you didn't even bother to read my post. There has to be an INCENTIVE to running a medical system. I don't know about you but I'm not going to spend my life trying cure diseases if I don't get paid for it. With out the Incentive of profit, the health care system will stop looking for ways to cure diseases and all of its' research and development will go away.

Why work to make medication when the government is willing to pay you the peoples money to be unproductive.

i never said there shouldnt be some form of incentive to make and invent new and useful drugs, but there is a difference between reseearch labs looking for the cure for cancer and a big drug company pushing out new slightly different andmore expensive versions of the same medication because its more profitable to do so.

You missed what I (and others) said the first time. The prices are ARTIFICIALLY high due to the heavy taxation and regulation of the government. And at least in America you have the opportunity and option to buy that 2k cancer pill, unlike in Britain where you might as well consider yourself dead if the government has to pay for such treatment.

so having high taxes somehow justifies making people pay hundred or thousands of dollars for the medication needed to save their lives, i wonder just how high the profit margins are on these pills, i would guess that the artificially high price probably has less to do with taxes and more to do with profit in a lot of cases.

i dont pretend to know how to go about fixing our system of insurance and healthcare but you CANT actually think that its perfect just the way it is can you? for the people who can actually afford it maybe. short story:

as most of you know i was in a car wreck a few years ago and was somewhat seriously injured. i broke my collarbone and seperated most of the ligaments holding my shoulder and collarbone together. after the accident my dad took me to the emergency room, it was around 4 or 5 in the afternoon, at around 6 or 7 i finally left the waitingroom and they took me to the "fast track" emergency room, at around 8:30 a doctor finally came back, appologized and scheduled me for xrays the NEXT DAY. i was given a sling and a perscription for tylenol 3 and sent home. the only thing they did there was suture a cut on my elbow. the followup to this is the day of my surgery i waited nearly SIX HOURS after my scheduled time before they actually started the surgery, i got there at 11 (was supposed to start at noon) and they didnt start prepping me till after 4pm

boy our healthcare system sure is efficient.

also, a doctor almost killed my mom by perscribing her medication that gave her a heart attack, he didnt check her patient history to see that she had been a smoker and he didnt check what meds she was already on.

[project_failure]

so having high taxes somehow justifies making people pay hundred or thousands of dollars for the medication needed to save their lives.

The more you tax them the more they have to raise the prices to make a suitable profit.

i dont pretend to know how to go about fixing our system of insurance and healthcare but you CANT actually think that its perfect just the way it is can you? for the people who can actually afford it maybe.

True, but Socializing will only lead to an even worse system. I'm not saying that we shouldn't try to fix the system but we need to make it better, not worse.

[Gamelver]

*sigh*, I wish someone here would understand the title...and not just the meaning, but where it comes from, of course.

Samus?

[grossaffe]

people seem to be under the impression that the American healthcare system is actually free-market.

[SpongeBuell]

This one's for you, CTFan

[CronoTriggerfan]

That's awesome.

[Sparkfist]

Ok for starters, Trition, the hospital you went to for your broken collar bone just sucked then. When I broke my arm when I was 10 I waited about 30 minutes in the ER before they had me in a room for an examination, then a few minutes later in the X-Ray room. When I was 18 I had my gallbladder taken out, I didn't have to wait more then maybe 2 hours 'till they moved me into the OR.

As for prescription drugs. As stated their price here in the U.S. is largely affected as a result of taxes.

Health-care has gone up as a result of the medical field. The companies are not getting the money they originally planned as a result of the hospitals charing more for tests, examinations, procedures, mal-practice, etc. As a result this drives cost up for the companies. So as the cost goes up they raise your cost, it's a vicious cycle.

Having a government health care plan will not help much. Reason being the few that do exist in Great Britian charge a lot of money for them to cover you. Reason being is two fold. One you can't play on the same level as the government, and two if you can't you move to higher ground and offer more perts.

I don't know if the Canadian's would agree but there their government heal care covers mostly the simple and routine stuff. If you need major surgery, I've heard all too often that those by Michigan head over here for that. And it's because you can get in line for an MRI, CAT scan, surgery, ect., within a month, or less.

As for taxes. Here in the U.S. we have a very screwed up idea of how to tax people and things. Reason I say that is for example Illinois. During this huge gas price boom, Illinois was raking in a lot of taxes as they're tax on gas-o-line went up as the price went up. When they told people to stop any unnecessary driving they did so. Soon after the state ran into a money problem. Taxation on items has to have some stability and we can't have politicians saying one thing, knowing that it's going to have a complete and opposite effect.

The other is that we tax people on the income they make. It's a very messy and complicated system. My father and I both feel that a flat tax rate would be best. Reason being you don't have people able to cancel out their taxes payed by donating, or having them transfered in a way that makes them untaxable. If everyone payed a flat rate the government would get more money and people wouldn't be complaining about taxes being unfair.

Really I think the only way to get people in office that could spear head these would be to have a limitation on the terms congressmen/congresswomen can serve. Get out all those old goats that keep us locked in an old and dying system out, and have people that are used to paying taxes and know what the hell is going on outside D.C.

[/rant]

[project_failure]

Ok for starters, Trition, the hospital you went to for your broken collar bone just sucked then. When I broke my arm when I was 10 I waited about 30 minutes in the ER before they had me in a room for an examination, then a few minutes later in the X-Ray room. When I was 18 I had my gallbladder taken out, I didn't have to wait more then maybe 2 hours 'till they moved me into the OR.

As for prescription drugs. As stated their price here in the U.S. is largely affected as a result of taxes.

Health-care has gone up as a result of the medical field. The companies are not getting the money they originally planned as a result of the hospitals charing more for tests, examinations, procedures, mal-practice, etc. As a result this drives cost up for the companies. So as the cost goes up they raise your cost, it's a vicious cycle.

Having a government health care plan will not help much. Reason being the few that do exist in Great Britian charge a lot of money for them to cover you. Reason being is two fold. One you can't play on the same level as the government, and two if you can't you move to higher ground and offer more perts.

I don't know if the Canadian's would agree but there their government heal care covers mostly the simple and routine stuff. If you need major surgery, I've heard all too often that those by Michigan head over here for that. And it's because you can get in line for an MRI, CAT scan, surgery, ect., within a month, or less.

As for taxes. Here in the U.S. we have a very screwed up idea of how to tax people and things. Reason I say that is for example Illinois. During this huge gas price boom, Illinois was raking in a lot of taxes as they're tax on gas-o-line went up as the price went up. When they told people to stop any unnecessary driving they did so. Soon after the state ran into a money problem. Taxation on items has to have some stability and we can't have politicians saying one thing, knowing that it's going to have a complete and opposite effect.

The other is that we tax people on the income they make. It's a very messy and complicated system. My father and I both feel that a flat tax rate would be best. Reason being you don't have people able to cancel out their taxes payed by donating, or having them transfered in a way that makes them untaxable. If everyone payed a flat rate the government would get more money and people wouldn't be complaining about taxes being unfair.

Really I think the only way to get people in office that could spear head these would be to have a limitation on the terms congressmen/congresswomen can serve. Get out all those old goats that keep us locked in an old and dying system out, and have people that are used to paying taxes and know what the hell is going on outside D.C.

[/rant]

Yep!

[CronoTriggerfan]

Yeah, Sparkfist pretty much just summarized my rebuttal, and I ESPECIALLY agree with that last paragraph. If we give politicians limited stay in Washington, the odds of them ramping up their connections and making the shady deals with one another that we all know they make, we'd be looking at a very different situation than we are today. I mean, people criticized FDR for an "Imperial Presidency", isn't it fair to criticize the Democratic rule of Congress in the 60s and 70s as an "Imperial Legislature"? Or are we bound to usher in yet another Empire in Speaker Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Reid? No matter what party you're from, the fact that all three branches may very well be controlled by the same activist party and ideology for the next (at least) two years should scare people. In a country founded on checks and balances, the situation we may face has little of either.