Stock Market Crash

[CronoTriggerfan]

Comical, but like I said before, I don't give a hoot in hell about how rich the government is.

Well, when the government is deep in debt, do you really think our dollar will be worth a whole lot?

No, inflation is bound to happen. I guess I'm just saying that instead of American taxpayers being footed the bill, big government should just cut all that wasteful spending and crap programs it's created over the years.

Thanks, FDR.

[Rekarp]

Thanks, FDR.

Something I agree with CTF....Lets get some small government and less restrictive economic bills congress. Kthanks

[project_failure]

Thanks, FDR.

'

While I do feel that world war 2 helped the economy during the great depression far more than any of FDR's little programs, I feel I should say one thing. FDR's plans were intended to last only till we got out of the depression. Had those plans been removed when the economy rebounded things might not be so bad.

I understand the supposed intentions of Social Security (why not help old people they at least deserve it.) But the program needs to be eliminated. The misuse of s.s. funds is a disaster.

I believe in laissez faire (spelling?) Let the markets regulate themselves.

Its seems I'm on CTfans side for the most part with this one. I see no reason why I should be forced to help failures (lol at my username.)

[Black Six]

Also, I'm not getting the correlation between national debt and stock prices. Last time I checked, the free market operated on ebbs and flows. If the national debt were correlative to the economy, then the 1997 dip never should've happened and the tech bubble never should've burst under Clinton. The Bush administration should've never experienced a bull market, either...

I believe the point people are trying to make is if the government had bailed out Wallstreet it would have increased the national debt by $700 billion. Instead, since the bill didn't pass, the market crashed big time.

[Extreme_Jesus]

Im stuck between a rock and a hard place with this crisis really

I oppose a bail-out, but at the same time something needs to be done and no one seems to know any other way.

This may be just me being cynical but i dont see how bailing them out will change anything in the long term, they'll just do it again. Plus i resent the tax payer footing the bill for their stupidity. Its like if i went and gambled everything i owned and lost, then went to the government saying "sorry, can have some more money and could you buy all my stuff back please". Would i get a bail out? No. Then why should these fatcat gamblers get off scott free?

Another thing that REALLY bugs me is the utter hypocrisy of it all. The Free marketers, who have been saying for years (and been getting their way) that there should be no regulations or rules about anything and that the market would just regualte itself somehow (that worked swell didnt it?) are now the ones telling us that suddenly they need a massive bail out. Wait a minute? surely if you actually believed all that crap you've been chatting the last decade then surely you should be shunning any bail outs and just letting the market sort itself out. But oh nono suddenly its been a complete u turn and i bet you any money when the economy finially gets back on the up, they'll revert to type and start calling for the same old crap as before.

I want to just let them burn and crash because htey deserve it, But at the same time i also dont want another worldwide depression. Because the standard currency most things in the world are traded with are dollars. So if the dollar becomes worthless then a lot of people are gonna be having problems. Esspecially seeing as the entire Oil industry is run with dollars.

Gah. Im gonna go live under rock

[project_failure]

regulations or rules about anything and that the market would just regualte itself somehow (that worked swell didnt it?)

If left to its own devices the market will straighten itself out, given time. Government regulation only gets in the way of the natural rise and fall of the market.

[SonyPortableizer]

Hmmmm, with this whole crash no one noticed that Oil Dropped $10 a gallon
Hmmmm, our nation is run on oil
So now if we keep this up we will eventually not have our nation run off oil
-It hurts on the outside, but is really good in the end, plus there has to be downs for there to be ups

[CronoTriggerfan]

Another thing that REALLY bugs me is the utter hypocrisy of it all. The Free marketers, who have been saying for years (and been getting their way) that there should be no regulations or rules about anything and that the market would just regualte itself somehow (that worked swell didnt it?) are now the ones telling us that suddenly they need a massive bail out. Wait a minute? surely if you actually believed all that crap you've been chatting the last decade then surely you should be shunning any bail outs and just letting the market sort itself out. But oh nono suddenly its been a complete u turn and i bet you any money when the economy finially gets back on the up, they'll revert to type and start calling for the same old crap as before.

I agree with most of what you said, but I really have to take issue with this part. Of course we need corporate oversight, but the amount we have in society today is ridiculous. America is no longer a free market, persay, more of a socialist, corporate-hating, profiteering state (thanks, Ted Kennedy). Either way, I would argue that the current financial situation isn't because of lack of regulation on the corporate side of things, but lack of government regulation on itself. The Dems set up a system where Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac bought up bad mortgages, and were supposed to do so, all in the name of "equality" (aka poor people getting things they don't deserve/can't pay for). Was it stupid of banks to sell their knowingly bad mortgages to Fannie and Freddie? Yeah. But at the same time, that system was imposed upon them via legislation, and two government entities, not the free market, offered the service. In fact, this is against all free market principles in that it completely abandons the notion of supply and demand and instead imposes upon it government initiative.

The only thing I worry about with all this is investor confidence. It's not that we lack capital, but that people are scared. The last time that happened, the Great Depression hit. (The AP had a great piece on this today). So either people stop being stupid and have confidence in the free market (not gonna happen, people are retards ) or we turn to somewhat Socialistic ideals to regain consumer confidence. It's a tough call. I really hope whatever fiscally responsible representatives we still have up on The Hill can get us more of a centrist bill, but with both parties scared to back any bill and Bush and Pelosi shoving this down the throats of Americans, it's hard to say what will happen.

Damn, I love this thread.

[Extreme_Jesus]

Another thing that REALLY bugs me is the utter hypocrisy of it all. The Free marketers, who have been saying for years (and been getting their way) that there should be no regulations or rules about anything and that the market would just regualte itself somehow (that worked swell didnt it?) are now the ones telling us that suddenly they need a massive bail out. Wait a minute? surely if you actually believed all that crap you've been chatting the last decade then surely you should be shunning any bail outs and just letting the market sort itself out. But oh nono suddenly its been a complete u turn and i bet you any money when the economy finially gets back on the up, they'll revert to type and start calling for the same old crap as before.

I agree with most of what you said, but I really have to take issue with this part. Of course we need corporate oversight, but the amount we have in society today is ridiculous. America is no longer a free market, persay, more of a socialist, corporate-hating, profiteering state (thanks, Ted Kennedy). Either way, I would argue that the current financial situation isn't because of lack of regulation on the corporate side of things, but lack of government regulation on itself. The Dems set up a system where Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac bought up bad mortgages, and were supposed to do so, all in the name of "equality" (aka poor people getting things they don't deserve/can't pay for). Was it stupid of banks to sell their knowingly bad mortgages to Fannie and Freddie? Yeah. But at the same time, that system was imposed upon them via legislation, and two government entities, not the free market, offered the service. In fact, this is against all free market principles in that it completely abandons the notion of supply and demand and instead imposes upon it government initiative.

The only thing I worry about with all this is investor confidence. It's not that we lack capital, but that people are scared. The last time that happened, the Great Depression hit. (The AP had a great piece on this today). So either people stop being stupid and have confidence in the free market (not gonna happen, people are retards ) or we turn to somewhat Socialistic ideals to regain consumer confidence. It's a tough call. I really hope whatever fiscally responsible representatives we still have up on The Hill can get us more of a centrist bill, but with both parties scared to back any bill and Bush and Pelosi shoving this down the throats of Americans, it's hard to say what will happen.

Damn, I love this thread.

Socialist? Not really. If it were i wouldnt have a problem

but hey thats just me.

I Guess it has a slight left edge to it, but its more pragmatism than idealody in this case.

I guess i just dont trust in businessmen enough to be sensible. Its not lie kthis crash hasnt been seen coming for a while now, and its not like people havent pointed out the problems beforehand, but hey things like that get in the way of profit so they're ignored. Thats why i feel regulation is important as the government is the only body with the authority to actual make sure it goes smoothly. Self regualtion clearly isnt working.

Id rather see less corparations and CEO's with all the money and have that in the hands of those the actually need and deserve it and do. But i guess our ideaologies differ slightly over who deserves it

No Taxpayer bailout, the banks themselves should sort out their mess. Honest Working people dont deserve the bare burden of the mistakes of the greedy rich.

[Rekarp]

Socialist? Not really. If it were i wouldnt have a problem

All socialism is the government holding the hands of the people and telling them what they can and can not do.

What We as the US need to do.

Get rid of the National Income Tax
Reduce the power of the central government
Give more power to the States
Become Isolationists again and ignore the rest of the worlds problems
Push Nuclear Power and Electric cars
Place tariffs on imported goods (not a high tarrif mind you)
Remove the electoral college system
Reduce funding in Military
Increase funding in schools and other programs like NASA
Remove Social Security
Free Community College (basically the only "Socialist" thing on this list)
Remove all government regulation on the economy (including monopolies)

Think that about covers it.

[CronoTriggerfan]

Id rather see less corparations and CEO's with all the money and have that in the hands of those the actually need and deserve it and do. But i guess our ideaologies differ slightly over who deserves it

That right there is Socialism. You're British, right? Britain, by the definition of most of us crazy Yankees, is a Socialist country. Then again, so is just about every European nation, the only thing on the scale to differ them is how authoritarian they are.

What We as the US need to do.

Get rid of the National Income Tax
Reduce the power of the central government
Give more power to the States
Become Isolationists again and ignore the rest of the worlds problems
Push Nuclear Power and Electric cars
Place tariffs on imported goods (not a high tarrif mind you)
Remove the electoral college system
Reduce funding in Military
Increase funding in schools and other programs like NASA
Remove Social Security
Free Community College (basically the only "Socialist" thing on this list)
Remove all government regulation on the economy (including monopolies)

Think that about covers it.

Wait, what? You wanna throw more money at a failing, public, socialized education system? Schools should compete in the free market just like everything else; the best succeed and the worst fail. Also, while you're working on that nuclear power, you might wanna utilize all the clean coal we've got here and pump Alaska, the Gulf, and the Pacific dry to make a cheap transitional period from oil to alternative. I'd disagree with the isolationist policy from an intelligence standpoint, but as far as crap like the Peace Core and "Foreign Aid" go, yeah, I'd agree. Though I'm not against going to war with a dictator or two every few years.

The military part is a beast all itself. Cut military funding? As far as I'm concerned, it's one of the only jobs the government should still be doing. With Russia becoming more dictatorial, Venezuela buying arms and trying to become nuclear, tensions with Iran and Israel, potential nuclear war between Pakistan and India, North Korea putting its nuclear program back on line, and China's attempted increased military proliferation and missile/space expansion, the last thign we need to do right now is reduce military spending. Besides, if we make all this stuff in America, it creates jobs for both the private and public sector.

Everything else is pretty solid.

[Extreme_Jesus]

All socialism is the government holding the hands of the people and telling them what they can and can not do.

Theres a little bit more to it than that

That right there is Socialism.

You're damn right

Britain may look socialist in comparison with the US but we've got a deceptivly right wing government. New Labour is supposed to a Centre Left party but its shifted way over to the right over the last decade in power but still pretends thats its not the most authoritarian right wing government since Thatcher. Its a poor show really, the opposition and the government now have so much in common they're almost the same. I mean they keep nicking each others ideas anyway

"Whoever you vote for the Government still get in" and all that


@Rekarp personally i think the worst thing the US could do now is become protectionist and isolationist. History shows that those policies are a direct cramp on economic growth and deepen recessions which exactly not want you want now. You dont have a large enough domestic market for the demand and if you shoot tarrifs up suddenly you want be able to export easily either. Trade is a two way street.

[Rekarp]

Why cut funding for the military? When all you need a is a big shiny red button to protect yourself there is no need for large expensive military projects. N. Korea has nukes and guess what? No one is going to F with them. I am not saying to get rid of the military but it seriously needs some fat trimmed.

Public Education should be the ONLY thing the government should provide to the public (well the postal system to but that is considered non-profit and isn't paid %100 out of tax payer wallet).

The reason for this is to give EVERYONE a chance to better themselves and there status in life. In my mind everyone DESERVES a college education if he or she wants it. Money shouldn't hold back the advancement of ones education.

Rekarp personally i think the worst thing the US could do now is become protectionist and isolationist. History shows that those policies are a direct cramp on economic growth and deepen recessions which exactly not want you want now. You dont have a large enough domestic market for the demand and if you shoot tarrifs up suddenly you want be able to export easily either. Trade is a two way street.

Seemed to work fine before. And I didn't say shoot up tariffs. I slight increase shouldn't hurt a thing. Without an income tax the government will have to generate income somehow.

[Gamelver]

I say:

Just let those in power fix it all up.

There's no point in bickering over it, really, all we can do is "campaign" and vote, and that's it. Arguing over the net is like running in the Special Olympics and....well, you know the rest.

Really, practically, it's those in power who choose what to do. Power (also, Money ) means influence, and so the more power the influence. I personally think things get a bit out of control when it's too free a market. Look what happened recently. I don't know if that supports what I'm saying, but it might . Anyway, this is all gibberish.

Tee hee!

-Tigger

[Extreme_Jesus]

This isnt bickering, its a healthy debate. and debate helps us formulate better ideas and see other view points.

To be honest im surprised it hasnt degenerated into the usual flame war shouting matches that would have been expected

The protectionism hindered the farmers in the 20's because they couldnt sell their surplus produce overseas and a shrinking domestic market meant many went bankrupt which put pressure on the banks due to the high levels of mortages defaulting.

And bear in mind around 40% of US GDP is manufacturing, so as the credit crunch hits the domestic markets will shrink so if you've cut yourself off then its only going to spiral in a vicous circle downwards futher than is nessacary as supply outstrips demand.